听力课堂TED音频栏目主要包括TED演讲的音频MP3及中英双语文稿，供各位英语爱好者学习使用。本文主要内容为演讲MP3+双语文稿:这是“绿色清洗”，终极塑料垃圾最激进的计划，希望你会喜欢！

【演讲人】Andrew Forrest

【演讲主题】《这是“绿色清洗”，终极塑料垃圾最激进的计划》

【演讲文稿-中英文】

翻译者 ChloeMa 校对 Yolanda Zhang

Chris Anderson: So, you've been obsessed with this problemfor thelast few years.What is the problem, in your own words?

克里斯·安得森： 你近几年都在痴迷于这个问题。你认为问题到底是什么？

Andrew Forrest: Plastic.Simple as that.Our inability to useit for the tremendous energetic commodity that it is,and just throw itaway.

安德烈·弗利斯特： 极其简单，塑料。我们无法将它 用作巨大的能源材料，所以就把它扔掉。

CA: And so we see waste everywhere.At its extreme, it looks a bitlike this.I mean, where was this picture taken?

克里斯： 我们都看到了，浪费无处不在。极端一些，就会像这样。这张照片是在哪里拍的？

AF: That's in the Philippines,and you know, there's a lot ofrivers, ladies and gentlemen,which look exactly like that.Andthat's the Philippines.So it's all over Southeast Asia.

安德烈： 菲律宾，在那里有很多河流， 女士们先生们，看起来都是这样的。那是在菲律宾拍摄的。整个东南亚都能看到这样的河流。

CA: So plastic is thrown into the rivers,and from there, of course,it ends up in the ocean.I mean, we obviously see it on thebeaches,but that's not even your main concern.It's what's actuallyhappening to it in the oceans. Talk about that.

克里斯: 塑料被扔到河里，然后理所当然的进入海洋。很明显，我们在沙滩上能看到，但是这不是你最主要的担忧，你担忧的是真实发生在 海洋中的事情。讲讲吧。

AF: OK, so look. Thank you, Chris.About four years ago,Ithought I'd do something really barking crazy,and I committed to do a PhDin marine ecology.And the scary part about that was,sure, I learneda lot about marine life,but it taught me more about marine deathandthe extreme mass ecological fatality of fish,of marine life, marinemammals,very close biology to us,which are dying in the millions ifnot trillions that we can't countat the hands of plastic.

安德烈： 谢谢，克里斯。大概四年前，我想要做一些疯狂的事，于是我拿到了 海洋生态学的博士学位。可怕的是，当然，我学习了很多海洋生物，但是它教给我更多的是 海洋生物的死亡，海洋中极度混乱的生态情况，海洋中的哺乳动物，鱼类，生物上与我们很相近的动物，数以百万计的在死去，甚至更多，仅仅是因为塑料。

CA: But people think of plastic as ugly but stable. Right?Youthrow something in the ocean, "Hey, it'll just sit there forever.Can'tdo any damage, right?"

克里斯： 但是人们认为塑料是丑陋却无害的。人们把垃圾扔进大海 “看吧，它会一直在这里。并不会造成任何伤害，不是吗？”

AF: See, Chris, it's an incredible substance designed for theeconomy.It is the worst substance possible for the environment.Theworst thing about plastics, as soon as it hits the environment,is that itfragments.It never stops being plastic.It breaks down smaller andsmaller and smaller,and the breaking science on this, Chris,whichwe've known in marine ecology for a few years now,but it's going to hithumans.We are aware now that nanoplastic,the very, very smallparticles of plastic, carrying their negative charge,can go straightthrough the pores of your skin.That's not the bad news.The bad newsis that it goes straight through the blood-brain barrier,that protectivecoating which is there to protect your brain.Your brain's a littleamorphous, wet mass full of little electrical charges.You put a negativeparticle into that,particularly a negative particle which can carrypathogens --so you have a negative charge, it attracts positive-chargeelements,like pathogens, toxins,mercury, lead.That's thebreaking science we're going to see in the next 12 months.

安德烈：不得不承认， 塑料是对经济最好的设计，也是对环境最坏的设计。最坏的情况是， 当塑料一触碰到大自然，它会分解成碎片。它永远都是塑料，只会分解得越来越小，越来越小，这其中突破性的科学原理，我们几年前在 海洋生态学中就有所了解，它会影响到人类。我们知道纳米塑料，也就是塑料中非常，非常 小的分子，带着负电荷，可以直接穿过你皮肤的毛孔。这还不是最坏的。最坏的部分是， 它会进入到你的血脑屏障，这层屏障能保护你的大脑。你的大脑有着不规则的形状，里面都是电荷。你放进去一个负电荷，特别是一个可能有病原体的负电荷——负电荷可以吸引正电荷,比如病原体，毒素，水银，铅。这就是我们一年内 会看到的突破性科学。

CA: So already I think you told me that there's like 600 plastic bags orsofor every fish that size in the ocean, something like that.Andthey're breaking down,and there's going to be ever more of them,andwe haven't even seen the start of the consequences of that.

克里斯： 你之前提到过，每条在海里的鱼平均能“分配”到大约600个塑料袋。这些塑料在分解，会有更多的塑料袋，目前我们甚至还没 意识到结局会是什么。

AF: No, we really haven't.The Ellen MacArthur Foundation, they'rea bunch of good scientists,we've been working with them for awhile.I've completely verified their work.They say there will beone ton of plastic, Chris,for every three tons of fish by, not 2050--and I really get impatient with people who talk about 2050 -- by2025.That's around the corner.That's just the here andnow.You don't need one ton of plastic to completely wipe out marinelife.Less than that is going to do a fine job at it.So we have toend it straightaway. We've got no time.

安德烈： 是的，我们还没有。艾伦·麦克阿瑟基金会有很多优秀的科学家，我们和他们合作了一段时间。我完全验证了他们的工作。他们说每三吨的鱼，就能够“分配”到一吨的垃圾， 不需要等到2050年——每次人们讲2050年我都会 嗤之以鼻——而是2025年。没几年了，这种情况眼看着就要发生了。不到一吨的塑料垃圾 就能彻底抹去海洋生物，就算再少一点也一样。所以我们要尽快解决， 我们的时间所剩无几了。

CA: OK, so you have an idea for ending it, and you're coming atthisnot as a typical environmental campaigner, I would say,but as abusinessman, as an entrepreneur, who has lived --you've spent your wholelife thinking about global economic systemsand how they work.And ifI understand it right,your idea depends on heroes who look something likethis.What's her profession?

克里斯： 好的，你有一个很好的解决方法，不像是那种典型的环境保护家，而是以一个商人， 一个创业者的身份——你用了你的一生思考全球经济系统和它的原理。如果我理解得没错，你的想法是基于这样的英雄。她是做什么的？

AF: She, Chris, is a ragpicker,and there were 15, 20 millionragpickers like her,until China stopped taking everyone's waste.Andthe price of plastic, minuscule that it was, collapsed.That led to peoplelike her,which, now -- she is a child who is a schoolchild.Sheshould be at school.That's probably very akin to slavery.Mydaughter Grace and I have met hundreds of people like her.

安德烈： 她是一名拾荒者，还有大约1500万到 2000万像她一样的人，直到中国停止回收全世界的垃圾，原本微不足道的 塑料价格也随之崩塌了。这导致很多像她一样的人，那些学龄儿童没钱读书了，她应该在学校读书，这和奴隶制非常相似。我和我的女儿格雷丝 看到了数百个像她一样的人。

CA: And there are many adults as well, literally millions around theworld,and in some industries,they actually account for the factthat, for example,we don't see a lot of metal waste in the world.

克里斯： 全世界还有数百万 像她一样的成人，在一些行业中，他们甚至功不可没，比如说，我们并没有看到很多金属垃圾。

AF: That's exactly right.That little girl is, in fact, the hero ofthe environment.She's in competition with a great big petrochemicalplantwhich is just down the road,thethree-and-a-half-billion-dollar petrochemical plant.That's theproblem.We've got more oil and gas in plastic and landfillthan wehave in the entire oil and gas resources of the United States.So she isthe hero.And that's what that landfill looks like, ladies andgentlemen,and it's solid oil and gas.

安德烈： 正是如此。这个小女孩，事实上， 是保护环境的英雄。她在对抗一家石化厂，就在那条路的另一边，一家市值35亿美元的石化厂。问题在于，在塑料堆填区中的油气资源比整个美国的油气资源还要多。从塑料回收的角度说， 她就是个英雄。女士们先生们，这就是堆填区的样子，这些就是固态石油和天然气。

CA: So there's huge value potentially locked up in therethat theworld's ragpickers would, if they could, make a living from.But why can'tthey?

克里斯： 所以这里有很大的开发潜能，这些捡垃圾的人们， 如果他们愿意，会以此为生。但是为什么他们不能呢？

AF: Because we have ingrained in usa price of plastic from fossilfuels,which sits just under what it takesto economically andprofitably recycle plastic from plastic.See, all plastic is is buildingblocks from oil and gas.Plastic's 100 percent polymer, which is 100percent oil and gas.And you know we've got enough plastic in the worldforall our needs.And when we recycle plastic,if we can't recycle itcheaper than fossil fuel plastic,then, of course, the world just sticksto fossil fuel plastic.

安德烈: 因为我们都有一种根深蒂固的思想，来自化石燃料的原生塑料价格，刚刚好比通过经济的回收方法获得的 塑料的价格便宜一些。要知道，所有的塑料 都来自石油和天然气。塑料百分之百是聚合物，代表它百分之百是石油和天然气。这世界上的塑料能满足我们所有的需要。当我们回收塑料时，如果我们的回收价格 比原生的价格高，理所当然的， 大家就会用原生塑料。

CA: So that's the fundamental problem,the price of recycledplastic is usually morethan the price of just buying it made fresh frommore oil.That's the fundamental problem.

克里斯： 所以最主要的问题是，回收塑料的价格通常高于直接买新的塑料。这是最主要的问题。

AF: A slight tweak of the rules here, Chris.I'm a commodityperson.I understand that we used to have scrap metal and rubbishironand bits of copper lying all round the villages,particularly inthe developing world.And people worked out it's got a value.It'sactually an article of value,not of waste.Now the villages and thecities and the streets are clean,you don't trip over scrap copper orscrap iron now,because it's an article of value, it gets recycled.

安德烈： 我们把规则调整一下。我是一个商人。我明白我们曾经有很多废金属，比如废铁，还有一些铜，它们散布在 村子里的各个角落，特别是发展中国家。人们发现这些东西是值钱的。它们实际上有价值，而不是废品。现在村庄，城市，道路上 都是干干净净的，如果你没有被废铁废铜绊倒，那是因为它们有价值， 它们被回收了。

CA:So what's your idea, then, to try to change that in plastics?

克里斯：所以你的主张是对塑料进行类似的回收？

AF: OK, so Chris,for most part of that PhD, I've been doingresearch.And the good thing about being a businessperson who's done OK atitis that people want to see you.Other businesspeople,even ifyou're kind of a bit of a zoo animal species they'd like to checkout,they'll say, yeah, OK, we'll all meet Twiggy Forrest.And soonce you're in there,you can interrogate them.And I've been to mostof the oil and gas and fast-moving consumer good companiesin theworld,and there is a real will to change.I mean, there's a coupleof dinosaurswho are going to hope for the best and do nothing,butthere's a real will to change.So what I've been discussing is,theseven and a half billion people in the worlddon't actually deserve tohave their environment smashed by plastic,their oceans rendereddepauperate or barren of sea life because of plastic.So you come downthat chain,and there's tens of thousands of brands which we all buy heapsof products from,but then there's only a hundred major resinproducers,big petrochemical plants,that spew out all the plasticwhich is single use.

安德烈： 这么说吧，我读博士的大部分时间 都是在做研究。当一个出色的商人的好处就是能见到很多人。其他的商人，即使你是动物园里的动物， 他们也想看看，他们会说，好啊，让我们 见见 Twiggy（嘉宾的昵称）。当你们见面的时候，你可以询问他们。我去过世界上大部分 的石油和天然气公司，以及快速消耗品公司，真的有想要做出改变的人。的确有一些巨头，希望好事发生却不愿为此努力，但是也有人真心想要做出改变。所以我一直谈论的是，世界上的75亿人，他们的环境不应该被塑料摧毁，他们的海洋不应该腐烂掉， 海洋生物不应该被塑料灭绝。所以你要找到这循环的开端，有成千上万的品牌， 我们成堆的买他们的产品，但是只有一百个树脂生产商，大型石化厂，只用过一次的塑料， 从那喷涌而出。

CA: So one hundred companiesare right at the base of this foodchain, as it were.

克里斯： 所以有一百个公司在这循环的根源。

AF:Yeah.

安德烈：是的。

CA:And so what do you need those one hundred companies to do?

克里斯：那么这一百个公司，你认为应该怎么做呢？

AF: OK, so we need them to simply raise the valueof the buildingblocks of plastic from oil and gas,which I call "badplastic,"raise the value of that,so that when it spreadsthrough the brands and onto us, the customers,we won't barely even noticean increase in our coffee cupor Coke or Pepsi, or anything.

安德烈： 很简单。我们需要他们提高用石油和天然气 做成的塑料的价格，我们把它们称作“坏塑料”，提高它们的价格，而当它们进入市场后， 我们作为消费者，甚至不会注意到 咖啡杯的涨价或者可乐，或者百事 任何东西的轻微涨价。

CA:Like, what, like a cent extra?

克里斯：就贵了1分钱？

AF: Less. Quarter of a cent, half a cent.It'll be absolutelyminimal.But what it does,it makes every bit of plastic all over theworld an article of value.Where you have the waste worst,saySoutheast Asia, India,that's where the wealth is most.

安德烈： 更少，半分钱。这种增长几乎察觉不到。但是它的作用是，能使世界上每一片垃圾都有价值。当你有很严重的污染，比如说东南亚，印度，那里是财富最丰盈的地方。

CA: OK, so it feels like there's two parts to this.One is, if theywill charge more moneybut carve out that excessand pay it -- intowhat? -- a fund operated by someoneto tackle this problem of --what?What would that money be used for, that they charge the extrafor?

克里斯：好的，所以 这里面包含两部分。第一部分，让原生塑料涨价，并把价格超出的部分用来支付—— 比如某种被管理的资金，用来解决什么样的问题是吗？那些钱会用来做什么？ 那些额外的钱？

AF: So when I speak to really big businesses,I say, "Look, Ineed you to change, and I need you to change really fast,"their eyesare going to peel over in boredom,unless I say, "And it's goodbusiness.""OK, now you've got my attention,Andrew."So I say, "Right, I need you to make acontributionto an environmental and industry transition fund.Overtwo or three years,the entire global plastics industrycan transitionfrom getting its building blocks from fossil fuelto getting its buildingblocks from plastic.The technology is out there.It'sproven."I've taken two multibillion-dollar operations fromnothing,recognizing that the technology can be scaled.I see atleast a dozen technologies in plastic to handle all types of plastic.Soonce those technologies have an economic margin,which this givesthem,that's where the global public will get all their plasticfrom,from existing plastic.

安德烈： 当我跟大企业交谈时，我会说 “听着，我需要你改了这个，而且越快越好。”他们的眼神透露出不感兴趣，除非我说： “这是一个很不错的项目。”“现在我开始感兴趣了，安德烈。”所以我会说： “好的，我需要你对环境和产业转型资金做出贡献。在接下来的两三年，整个全球塑料产业可以从使用化石燃料转变到用回收塑料。这项科技已经存在了，已经被证实过有效。我已经从无到有进行了 两次数十亿美元的操作，认识到这项技术是可以规模化的。我见过至少十几种可以处理各种各样的塑料的科技。一旦这项产业为这些科技带来了经济价值，这将会使全世界的塑料需求都转向回收塑料。

CA: So every sale of virgin plastic contributes money to afundthat is used to basically transition the industryand start topay for things like cleanup and other pieces.

克里斯：所以每卖出 一片新塑料，就会有更多资金用于此产业的转型，以及环境的清理。

AF:Absolutely. Absolutely.

安德烈：当然，当然。

CA: And it has the incredible side benefit,which is maybe even themain benefit,of creating a market.It suddenly makes recyclableplastica giant business that can unlock millions of people around theworldto find a new living collecting it.

克里斯： 而且它有不可思议的额外优点，甚至可以成为主要优点，那就是创造新市场。忽然之间，可回收塑料成为了巨大的产业， 可以帮助世上数百万的人找到新的生活方式。

AF: Yeah, exactly.So all you do is, you've got fossil fuelplastics at this valueand recycled plastic at this value.You changeit.So recycled plastic is cheaper.What I love about this most,Chris, is that, you know,we waste into the environment 300, 350 milliontons of plastic.On the oil and gas companies own accounts,it'sgoing to grow to 500 million tons.This is an acceleratingproblem.But every ton of that is polymer.Polymer is 1,000 dollars,1,500 dollars a ton.That's half a trillion dollars which could go intobusinessand could create jobs and opportunities and wealth right acrossthe world,particularly in the most impoverished.Yet we throw itaway.

安德烈： 正是如此。也就是说，比如原生塑料在这个价格，回收塑料在这个价格，我们让它们交换一下，让回收塑料更便宜。我最喜欢的部分是，我们向环境中倾倒了3.5亿吨塑料，根据石油和天然气公司的估计，这个数字将会达到5亿。这个问题在加速。但是每一吨塑料都是聚合物，聚合物是1000或1500美元一吨。大约5000万美元会流入回收行业，可以创造工作和各种机会， 创造国际化的财富，特别是在贫困地区。但是我们就这么白白扔掉了。

CA: So this would allow the big companies to invest in recyclingplantsliterally all over the world –

克里斯： 所以这样能让大公司们投资世界各地的回收工厂——

AF: All over the world.Because the technology is low-capitalcost,you can put it in at rubbish dumps, at the bottom of bighotels,garbage depots, everywhere,turn that waste into resin.

安德烈： 任何地方。因为科技不需要 大量的资金成本，你可以把它放在垃圾堆里， 酒店地下室，垃圾场，任何地方，将垃圾转换为树脂。

CA: Now, you're a philanthropist,and you're ready to commit someof your own wealth to this.What is the role of philanthropy in this project?

克里斯： 你是一个慈善家，而且你也已经 投入了自己的资金。那么慈善在这个项目中的作用是什么？

AF: I think what we have to do is kick in the 40 to 50 million USdollarsto get it going,and then we have to create absolutetransparencyso everyone can see exactly what's going on.From the resinproducers to the brands to the consumers,everyone gets to see who isplaying the game,who is protecting the Earth, and who doesn'tcare.And that'll cost about a million dollars a week,and we'regoing to underwrite that for five years.Total contribution is circa 300million US dollars.

安德烈：我认为我们需要 投入4到5千万美元才能让它运行，当然我们还需要绝对的透明度，让每个人都能了解实时状况。从树脂生产商到品牌消费者，每个人都可以看到 谁在掌管大权，谁在保护地球， 谁又满不在乎。这个的花费大概是 每周100万美元，我们会提供大约5年的资金。总共的支出大约是三亿。

CA: Wow.Now –

克里斯： 哇。现在——

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

You've talked to other companies, like to the Coca-Colas of thisworld,who are willing to do this, they're willing to pay a higherprice,they would like to pay a higher price,so long as it'sfair.

你也讲了别的公司， 像是可口可乐，是愿意这么做的， 他们愿意为保护环境而付高价，非常公平。

AF: Yeah, it's fair.So, Coca-Cola wouldn't like Pepsi to playballunless the whole world knew that Pepsi wasn't playing ball.Thenthey don't care.So it's that transparency of the marketwhere, ifpeople try and cheat the system,the market can see it, the consumers cansee it.The consumers want a role to play in this.Seven and a halfbillion of us.We don't want our world smashed by a hundredcompanies.

安德烈： 是的，非常公平。除非全世界都知道 百事可乐没有参与合作，否则可口可乐不会 想要百事可乐参与进来，那么他们也就不在乎。所以，这就是市场的透明性，如果有人试图作弊，那么整个市场都会看到， 所有消费者也会看到。消费者也想发挥作用。我们有75亿人。我们不想整个世界毁在几百个公司中。

CA: Well, so tell us, you've said what the companies can doandwhat you're willing to do.What can people listening do?

克里斯： 你提到了公司能做些什么，以及你愿意做的事情。我们的观众可以做些什么呢？

AF: OK, so I would like all of us,all around the world,to goa website called noplasticwaste.org.You contact your hundred resinproducerswhich are in your region.You will have at leastonewithin an email or Twitter or a telephone contact from you,andlet them know that you would like them to make a contribution to afundwhich industry can manage or the World Bank can manage.Itraises tens of billions of dollars per yearso you can transition theindustry to getting all its plastic from plastic,not from fossilfuel.We don't need that. That's bad. This is good.And it can cleanup the environment.We've got enough capital there,we've got tens ofbillions of dollars, Chris, per annumto clean up the environment.

安德烈： 我想请各位，还有世界上所有的人，登陆一个叫做 noplasticwaste.org 的网站。你可以找到你所在地区的一百个树脂生产商。你会至少联系上其中一家，给他们发邮件， 发推特，或是打电话，告诉他们，你希望他们为由某个行业或世界银行所管理的基金捐款。如果每年收集到几百亿的捐款，你就可以让这个产业转型， 用塑料来再生塑料，而不再使用化石燃料，前者对环境更友好。剩余的资金还可以用来治理环境。我们有足够的资金，每年有几百亿美元用来净化环境。

CA: You're in the recycling business.Isn't this a conflict ofinterest for you,or rather, a huge business opportunity for you?

克里斯： 你已经在回收行业了。这难道不会损失你的利益吗，或者，这对你来说反而 是一个巨大的商机？

AF: Yeah, look, I'm in the iron ore business,and I compete againstthe scrap metal business,and that's why you don't have any scrap lyingaround to trip over,and cut your toe on,because it getscollected.

安德烈： 是的，我在铁矿行业，我与废铁公司竞争，这就是为什么你不会在走路的时候绊倒在一堆废铁上，划破脚趾，因为它们被回收了。

CA:This isn't your excuse to go into the plastic recycling business.

克里斯：这不是你进入塑料回收行业的借口，

AF: No, I am going to cheer for this boom.This will be theinternet of plastic waste.This will be a boom industry which will spreadall over the world,and particularly where poverty is worst because that'swhere the rubbish is most,and that's the resource.So I'm going tocheer for it and stand back.

安德烈： 不是的，我还要大力提倡。这会成为塑料垃圾行业中的互联网。这会是横跨世界的成熟产业，特别是严重贫困的地区， 因为那是垃圾最多的地方，同时也是资源所在地。所以我要大力提倡，并且全力支持。

CA: Twiggy, we're in an erawhere so many people around the worldare craving a new, regenerative economy,these big supply chains, thesebig industries,to fundamentally transform.It strikes me as a giantidea,and you're going to need a lot of people cheering you on yourwayto make it happen.Thank you for sharing this with us.

克里斯： Twiggy，在我们所处的年代，很多人在世界各地发展新的，再生的经济，让这些巨大的供应链， 这些巨大的产业发生根本性的转变。这个了不起的想法震撼到我了，在这个过程中， 我们也需要得到很多人的支持，才能继续前进。感谢您与我们分享这些。

AF:Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris.

安德烈：非常感谢，克里斯。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）